Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Hi there. Once again, family and friends, welcome to Awareness Fostering a more compassionate, empathetic and accepting society.
I'm your host, Rob Daniels. And today's episode is going to be exploring a kind of loss that often goes unseen. The loss of a beloved animal companion. So we will get to that. I'd like to thank you first for being along here watching this podcast on YouTube or perhaps you are listening wherever you get your podcast. I thank you so much for doing so. Don't forget to like and subscribe and share this podcast with as many people as possible so we can keep this thing going as, as long as we can. Because mental health is super important. It is an ongoing thing and it is, it is certainly what the world needs now more than ever. So my guest here today, Katherine Kenwell, she is fantastic. She's an author, she's a mediator and the writer behind a fantastic book that I read called Life After Loss. A deeply moving book that it's pretty self explanatory with the, with the title, like essentially how do you deal with life after loss? And it's this deeply moving book that, that offers comfort and guidance for anyone grieving the loss of a pet or a cherished person. So Catherine's own experiences with loss have, have shaped her work and her mission to, to help others navigate the journey toward healing. And of course healing looks different for everybody. But I'd like to thank you, Catherine, for spending some time here today and, and willing to chat about your, your book and of course pet grief, which we're really going to be focusing in on here for this episode. So thank you so much for being along.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Great. Thanks, Rob.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: So why don't you, for those who may be, let's say, discovering your work for the very first time, what inspired you to write Life After Loss and how did your personal experiences influence this book?
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Life After Loss was really sort of a heartfelt project that I was working on after my father died and a number of things had happened.
Loss wise and, and in different, different realms. You know, the loss of a job.
I lost some, some, oh gosh, some brain power when I had my brain injury and that really changed my life when that happened. Shortly after that I lost my job. So there were a number of things there that I wanted to talk about in the book that aren't normally talked about.
Things like losing a job, losing identity and losing a pet. I mean, I wanted to dedicate an entire chapter to losing an animal companion because it's something that we don't often talk about.
I think we're getting better at it, but we don't necessarily treat it like we, we could.
Looking at a pet being a family member, it is like losing the combination of a family member and your bff. Right.
So that's, that's why I wanted to dedicate a section of the book to pet loss. Because I think it's something important. I think there are things we can do, but there are also things that it's important to understand why you feel that loss so profoundly. I mean, some people say it was just a cat or it was just a dog, but it's so much more to the person who's, who's in a relationship with that animal.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I mean it's just reading that chapter in your book about Sonny, who was your. That, that lab that. That you had and the relationship Sonny had with your father was just fantastic. It was heartwarming. And the way that you, you built his spirit up in, in that book, in that chapter was. It made me quite emotional reading that. And he obviously meant a whole lot to your family, which is.
Yeah. And, and, and pet loss, I mean it can be very, very private kind of grief too. Like one that society sometimes doesn't fully acknowledge. Like you had alluded to a little earlier. Why do you think like losing an animal companion can feel so uniquely painful and even oftentimes misunderstood?
[00:05:27] Speaker A: I think it, as you said, it is something that is under acknowledged, number one.
But our animal companions really are so integral to our maintaining our mental health because sometimes you talk to your dog or you talk to your cat and you tell them things that you'd be embarrassed or ashamed to tell anyone else and they just look at you and they don't stop loving you.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: Yeah. There's no judgment. Right.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: It could be a horrible thing that's going on, but they look at you, they, they are beside you all the time. They might, you know, put a paw on you or kiss your face or whatever.
And really you are the best part of their day.
And so when you have that relationship, non judgmental, always there, consistent and, and your confidant.
When you lose that person or that. Sorry, that. See, when you lose that, that relationship, it's really, really tough.
It could be the only creature you have in your home besides yourself.
Especially with older people. Older people have cats and dogs and they have no other family. So it's really traumatic when they lose someone who. Or when they lose something, someone who is so important to them.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just they're, they're integral to our well being, I think.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you've, you've walked this, this path yourself, obviously, in, in talking about Sonny. And in your chapter in Life After Loss, when you think back to the early days of the grief, can you recall some of the first steps that helped you begin to heal?
[00:07:34] Speaker A: I really recognized and wanted to immediately memorialize Sonny's life.
Some of the things I did.
We had him cremated, and so we had his ashes, and, you know, we have his ashes. A friend and a neighbor gave us the wonderful gift of a wind chime for, for our garden.
And so we were creating these, these memories.
You might want to put together a photo book. There are lots of companies that do those photo books now, and they'll do them up really nicely.
And just pictures, pictures of the times you spent together and your relationship with them.
You know, you could, it's simple what you could do. You could just print off a picture, put it in a frame, and hang the, the dogs or the cat's collar over the edge of it. And that's just something that you can look at and remember how wonderful your relationship was.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: So there are lots of things that you can do.
I think one of the things that, that helped me was putting the word out because a lot of people knew sonny. He was 14 when he died. He lived with us in Toronto. He used to run with me all the time. A lot of people knew him.
My. My dad's friends knew him.
And it was important to get the word out because everyone who said, oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, I know how much he meant to you.
Every time someone said something, it made me feel less alone.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: And I think that was, that's, that was really important to me. And that's one of the things that I encourage people to do is, is make sure that you get the word out, post it on social media. Social media isn't good for a lot of things, but it's good for something like that where you can pull in your community and your community will support you because most of the people you deal with on a regular basis or your friends have all gone through that. Right.
I remember when you lost your cat and I felt so bad because I knew what you were going through.
And that just offers a little bit of, of, of community to anyone who's, who's going through that.
[00:10:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Mine was an orange and white furball, kind of resembled Garfield and.
Yeah, his name, Garfield Garnett and. But he had all kinds of nicknames, but I know, like, you know, it's it's so difficult, like you think, to.
For people that experience the grief when it. When it hits you, like a. Like a rush, like a wave pool right in the face, the water.
Essentially, within the first week of. Of your.
Your companion, your pet dying. It's.
What is.
Do you encourage people to feel those feelings? Like, if you're just having a day where you're just. You're. You're crying and you can't stop the tears, and you're angry at yourself for just keeping on crying, you can't stop.
What do you recommend to someone that's experiencing it, like now, right off the bat, where it's fresh and you don't know where to turn?
Do you tell people to embrace what they're feeling to. To turn it off?
What would you say?
[00:11:14] Speaker A: The last thing I would ever say is to turn it off.
Because I think it's a really important part of the process to grieve, to cry, to feel upset, to lose your appetite.
One of the things that I used to do, and I did it for probably two, three weeks, is we had kept Sunny's bed in our front room.
And sometimes before bed, I would just go and lie on it, and I would smell his smell, and I would remember how beautiful he was and how he was such a good boy.
And sometimes I'd cry, and most of the time I ended up smiling because I remembered those. Those moments that were just so.
He was such an amazing dog, and he'll always be my savior. I mean, he saved my life. When I was. When I was really depressed, he was there for me. And so how. How do you.
How do you deal with that? How do you deal with that loss?
The thing I did? You know, I cried when I wanted to, and people were very kind to me and they. They understood what I was going through.
And it's nothing to be ashamed about. I had someone.
It just reminds me of a story. I had someone a while back.
I deal with the public a lot and. And she. I. I asked her how she was and she got choked up and, And I said, oh, what's going on? She said, oh, I lost my dog and my dog, blah, blah, blah, my dog, you know, the story about her dog. And I said, oh, I said, I'm so sorry. You know, she started crying and I said, it's okay to cry.
And then going on in the conversation, I had just. My, My.
A friend of mine had been diagnosed with. With stage four cancer. And I happened to say, oh, you know, so. And so I'm. I'M quite concerned about this.
And she said to me, oh my gosh, here I am going on about my dog and you have such a big thing you're dealing with here. And I said, no, no, no, there is no difference, there is no difference between how you feel about your animal and how I feel about my friend. It's all about love. And grief is love. Right, right. It's all about love. And it, there's no, there's no competition when it comes to grief.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: Because you, everyone deals with it so many different ways.
There's no competition. You can't grieve more than one person, you can't grieve less than one person. You grieve as you grieve.
And I think. Yeah, sorry, no, go ahead.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: I was going to say what ifing I find is, is a big thing when it comes to the grief and the guilt.
It's, it's a, it's a common thinking when, when we lose a pet or we, we lose a friend, someone that's close to us. What would you say to someone, let's say, who, who can't stop replaying those moments or, or wondering if they could have done more.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Be kind to yourself.
Be kind to yourself.
First of all, be kind to yourself. Remember that you need to take care of yourself.
If someone's, if it becomes a problem where it's interfering with your relationship, your other relationships, or with work or with your, you know, day to day mental and emotional state, I suggest that, you know, people get help. There is help out there. There are psychologists who, who have specialties in dealing with people who are grieving their, their companion animals.
There's, there is help out there and I encourage that. You know, sometimes just working that through with a professional who, who can be, you know, a little, a little more objective, that person can help you through it.
Because I think for some people, I had a friend actually the past year.
She just seemed to not be able to get over her dog's passing.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: And it was just the two of them and so she was alone and she.
I felt that it was getting, it could be getting a little unhealthy. So I suggested to her that she see someone and she did and she felt better.
Yeah. There comes a point where, when it starts to interfere, like with any grief, if it starts to interfere with your day to day life, it's important to reach out and get some help.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: So many people, they mean well, but they don't always know how to support a friend or family member who is, who's Grieving a pet.
Maybe they're not on the same level with animals as they are. They don't offer the same purpose to them. So what advice would you give to, let's say, someone trying to offer that support with empathy?
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Again, reach back into your own feelings and remember how you felt.
And remember that not everyone grieves the same way.
So listen to them.
You can't necessarily offer advice.
So listening is much more important than talking.
Listen to what they have to say. Listen to what's going on in their heads.
Be an active listener. Nod, you know, just. Just react to what they're saying. Listen deeply to what they're saying and don't brush them off, you know?
Yeah.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And to try and probably remove judgment if they have any. If it's probably. If it's negative, I would imagine.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: Try and stay away from that.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Yes. And, you know, even saying, well, I think you should, because I.
Yeah. You know, that doesn't work. Right. As, you know, we all grieve differently. And so one answer isn't necessarily another person's answer.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: Right. You can offer up advice. Sure. Like, hey, you know, maybe you want to try this? This worked for me for, for something else type of thing or for the, for the person that.
A person that meant something to someone else in their life and they're like, this is what worked for them. And maybe you can, maybe you want to try it, but, you know, no. No pressure type of thing.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I think you. You never want to be prescriptive.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: Right, Right. Exactly. Exactly.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: You know, you don't want to say do this, do that.
I always. I refer to myself as the anti expert because experts sometimes tell people what to do when it really doesn't resonate with them at all.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: So I'm. I'm much more open to listening than I am directing.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: Yeah. As much as we're the same, we are different.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I believe.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're not only an author, but Katherine Kenwell is also a mediator. So someone trained in communication and understanding.
How has that shaped the way you write and talk about grief?
[00:18:58] Speaker A: I think I really, again, mediating is a lot of listening and it's, excuse me, determining the underlying meaning sometimes to what people are saying.
And instead of just saying, you know, okay, I get it. This is what we're going to do.
Repeat back to them whether, you know, do I understand this correctly? Is this what you're saying?
Those are just communication roles that you can play that you can say. Is this what I'm hearing Is this what you're telling me?
Do you mean this?
And that is a big part of mediation is that you want to ask maybe guiding questions, but really let the parties or the people talk.
And quite often people will come up with resolutions to something without you even saying anything. Once they start talking, they might say, oh, yeah, well, I never really thought of that. Or if they hear another person, the other party in, you know, in a two party mediation say, well, this is what I really felt I needed. And I didn't get that. Sometimes that opens communication between the two parties and they come to a resolution. So, you know, it is, it's listening. I'm going to say that most of the work I do anywhere is listening.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Which is, you know, they, they got to come up with a course on that. You know, they teach so many courses out there. But what about ones on listening? Listening?
[00:20:39] Speaker A: There are, there are some.
Yes, there are.
I've taken courses in active listening and deep listening, which is, you know, it's, it's almost, it sounds kind of funny, but it's, it's open hearted listening.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:53] Speaker A: Open heart, open mind. And you, you go in again, probably more like animals than the humans we know, but you go in with an open heart, open mind and no judgment.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: That's, that's incredible. I gotta look those up because I, I'd always wondered that in like high school and college there's all these courses, but not an active listening course that I found anywhere in college or high school for, for that matter. But so that's, that's good to know.
So you've had many conversations, through your conversations and, and, and readers, you've heard many stories of loss and healing and, and they're all written in that book. I have it right.
Life After Loss. If you haven't picked it up yet, you should definitely do so. Available on Amazon for sure. Life After Loss. And there's reflections on moments of grace and courage in grief.
You're gonna need some, some tissues, I'll tell you that much. Because there are so many well written stories in there and that can resonate with so many different people if you open your mind and your heart to others and what they've gone through.
So what have you learned from, from others who've shared their journeys with you.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Really, that we all have our own ways of dealing with, with things that people are for the most part quite creative when it comes to figuring out how to, how to deal with things.
I mean, some people, you know, losing children is a good example.
Losing children is one or a child is one of the worst things a parent can possibly go through.
And some of the stories in the book deal with that.
And there are great.
In. In one situation in particular, a woman started a not for profit that helped people who were dealing with the same issues as her son.
And she built it up. And, and, and people were. Were just so impressed with what she and her husband had to offer the community. And it was really all in response to. To losing their son.
So there are. There are positive things that can come out of. Of loss.
We just have to be creative sometimes. We have to look for them.
But there's. There's always something that. That we can do to make it better, make it better for other people, you know?
[00:23:42] Speaker B: And you have.
You have a new dog now, right? You have that. You. That's been in your life for a little while, right?
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: If I haven't followed fully, so maybe you can. It's.
What's your new dog's name? Sorry.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Madigan. And she's Madigan. And she's. We got her two years ago.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: She again, is a rescue. Sonny was a rescue.
Madigan is a. Is a funny little firecracker.
She's.
She's never met any kind of creature that she doesn't like. She just falls in love with everyone immediately. And that is so refreshing. And, you know, anyone who has a dog and watches their dog go up to someone and go, oh, I love you. You're the best. You know, that's so terrific to feel that. And there again, I think that's one of the things that we miss the most when we lose an annual animal companion, because we miss that joy and curiosity.
But Madigan is.
She's a rescue. She's from Barbados.
And, and she was. She was found on the street.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:24:57] Speaker A: And, yeah, so she's.
[00:24:59] Speaker B: How do you. How do you get that process started? How did you hear that? It was something online you probably caught wind of or.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I knew of. You know, because I have worked with animals in the past. I knew of a number of.
I'll call them not for profits or agencies that deal with bringing dogs in or finding dogs for rescue.
I happened to go through the Jack Russell Terrier Rescue of Ontario, and I just happened to see a picture. She was from Barbados. A partner of their organization had brought her to them, and she was. She was terrified of everyone. When she, when we met her, it took her, I'm gonna say, 20 minutes to come up to us. And what she did, she never left. She never left our side. She's just a, A shadow. She's hilarious. Yeah. But, but you know, she's so different than Sunny was. Sunny was my angel. I will say.
Sorry, go ahead.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: I was just gonna say. Yeah, because it's been. I mean, you've had her Madigan for two. Two years. So how, how. What's been the time frame since Sunny passed away? It's been how many years now since. Between getting mad again?
Probably many years.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: It's gonna sound funny. It's gonna sound really funny, but when Sunny died, we felt we couldn't live without a dog. And I just kind of started looking and I wasn't really keen on getting a dog, but when I saw her, there was something in her picture that I felt, oh, my gosh, she's the one. And it was only two months after we saw, after we lost Sunny, which I never thought that would happen.
Never in a million years. I thought, some people say, oh, I'm never going to get another dog. It's too heartbreaking.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: Yeah. What do you say to those people?
[00:26:56] Speaker A: Never say never.
[00:26:57] Speaker B: Never say never.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: Because if you love having a companion around, it's.
I understand that feeling, but I have difficulty relating to it because I, I don't think a house is a home without some kind of four legged creature in it.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: My wife is the same way. She feels the same way. And you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, everyone's got a different feeling towards it and, and I, I completely understand where you're, where you're coming from and I mean, it's, there's.
Did you feel some guilt at all, though, when, when you, it's like, you know, Sunny and, and now you're gonna have a new four legged creature in the house. But it's, it's not Sunny. So it's. Is there guilt there? Was there guilt?
[00:27:54] Speaker A: I.
There might have been initially a little bit of guilt because everything happened so quickly.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: But she is so different than he is.
And she just like, Sunny needed a loving home and loving humans.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: And.
[00:28:23] Speaker B: That takes residence pretty much. Yeah.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: Yeah. I somehow think that, you know, Sunny was like, oh, yeah, get another dog. We know you can't, you know, up here or wherever we are, wherever the dogs hang out after they die, looked at us and said, you guys are so sad. You better get another dog.
[00:28:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you see a part of Sunny in, in Madigan? A little bit. When you look into Anakin's eyes? Do you. Is there a part of Sunny? No.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: No. I think Sunny was so smart. Sunny was he was. I don't know if dogs can be geniuses, but he was so smart that you could. You could tell just by looking at him how smart he was, the things he used to do, the things that you could teach him that you just. Like he was one of those dogs where I think at one point we had 22 toys and we could say, sunny, go get the octopus. And he'd go and get the octopus. Yeah, like, he was that smart. He was a really, really smart dog.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: Really smart.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: Man is smart in a different way. But she's very cute and she's very loving.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: So playful. A little more playful.
[00:29:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I think her. Her love is.
How would I describe it? He was. He was in on the joke. If we were joking around the house, you know, he'd be in on the joke. He'd be like, oh, yeah, you guys, whatever Madigan is, I'm a dog and I love playing like a dog. And you guys are humans, and I really like you.
I'm not super bright, but I'm smart enough to know where my food comes from, what I need to do to get a treat, you know, just all that stuff. Yeah.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So finally, what do you. What do you hope readers and listeners take away from your book Life After Loss? And what message would you offer to anyone still missing their companion today?
[00:30:29] Speaker A: I think probably the first thing I would remind people is that they're not alone.
Their feelings are their feelings, but they're not necessarily different than what other people have felt in that loss.
And there is, you know, there's a. There's a. An odd little camaraderie with people who have lost dogs. They. Everyone knows how it feels, and they're not alone. And to talk about it, you know, talk about it, think about what, what your animal meant to you and, you know, do something to remember how wonderful that relationship was.
And that goes with people as, as well. When you lose a family member, I think you never as. As, you know, you never stop missing any person.
You never stop loving them.
But I think if we're lucky, we can shift to feeling sadness when we think of our human or our animal and start to think about the wonderful times that you shared. And smile.
A smile is something if you think you're going to cry and it's okay to cry, but if you think you're going to cry and you're like, I just don't want to be sad anymore. I don't want to be sad. I want to think of the wonderful things.
Smile. It's one of those actions that if you smile, it changes the brain, you know, significantly enough that you can feel the love more than you feel the sorrow.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: That's a great way of putting it. Yeah. Fantastic way of putting it. Kathryn, thank you so much for sharing your heart, your wisdom, and your story with us today. Certainly means a lot.
[00:32:44] Speaker A: Thanks, Rob. Thanks for inviting me and I'm glad I finally made it. My cough is just better now.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: There you go. I'm so happy you're feeling much better. Grief is never simple, but you know what? Conversations like this remind us that healing doesn't mean forgetting. It means carrying love forward in new ways. And to our listeners of Awareness, if you're struggling with pet loss, just remember your grief is real, your love is really valid, and you don't have to walk through any of this alone.
This has been another episode of Awareness, the podcast episode number 29, where we explore the many ways compassion, empathy, and acceptance, along with understanding, can help us heal both individually and together. I thank you so much for being along. Don't forget to like and subscribe. This has been episode number 29 with Katharine Kenwell. I'm Rob Daniels. Thank you so much to producer Mike for holding things down and making this podcast possible.
I look forward to catching you in the next episode.
