Andrew, a medically retired municipal police sergeant and Canadian Armed Forces Captain

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Hi there again, family and friends. Welcome back to Awareness, of course, a podcast for focused at fostering a more compassionate, empathetic and accepting society. Yours truly, Rob Daniels with you here. And sure hope you can hit that subscribe that like button and share this podcast, this channel with as many people as you can. Those that have had a journey in mental health continue to have an ongoing journey with mental health, that are just passionate about the subject and want to see it flourish and keep breaking down stigmas that still exist out there. So again, like and subscribe on YouTube wherever you get your podcasts, that would certainly mean a lot for sure. So today's conversation is certainly an important one. Like all conversations on awareness. My guest Andrew here today, a medically retired municipal police sergeant and Canadian Armed forces captain whose life was shaped by service, sacrifice, and ultimately a profound reckoning with mental health. Okay, so Andrew's journey includes navigating Post Traumatic Stress disorder. You've heard about that on this podcast before. And we're going to dive into it again because this is from a different angle, a different profession. And so with navigating ptsd, Andrew uses and a service dog as a medical device. Excuse me, uses a service dog as a medical device at a time when very few people were doing so in Canada when this happened. Now, this challenges the stigma within policing and military culture and finding new purpose after medical retirement, that can sometimes be challenging. We'll dive into that. He's also the founder and executive director of Veterans and Everyday Heroes, a nonprofit which is dedicated to supporting veterans, first responders, and others who continue to serve in brand new ways. So this is going to be an honest, grounded conversation about identity, about healing, advocacy, and really what it means to keep showing up after everything just changes. [00:02:45] Speaker A: So. [00:02:46] Speaker B: So, Andrew, thank you so much for being here tonight. [00:02:50] Speaker A: It's awesome to be here, so I appreciate the invite. [00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah, no, definitely. For sure. So glad to have you along. I know we've been meaning to connect for this episode and glad we could do so before the holiday season. So for listeners that are meeting you for the first time, can you share a little bit about your journey in policing and the Canadian Army Armed forces and what service meant to you at the time? [00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I started both professions quite young and, you know, fast forward and then rewind. Way too young. I just passed my 18th birthday or my 19th birthday. I had entered the Canadian Armed forces as a private soldier, went through basic training, and shortly after basic training, I was hired as a cadet with the London Police Service. [00:03:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Coming from a town of A thousand people. That was certainly a culture shock, to say the least. If you've ever been to London, Ontario, it is certainly not the same as Berks Falls, Ontario. [00:03:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:57] Speaker A: And you may have touched on it on previous episodes, but, you know, the brain doesn't even stop developing until around the age of 25. And imagine doing both those professions concurrently. The amount of trauma in a very short period of time with a very young brain just translated into eventual formal diagnosis of PTSD when it was nearly far too late. [00:04:27] Speaker B: So go ahead, sir. [00:04:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't answer the rest of your question about sort of what drove me there. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Yeah. What service sort of like, meant to you at the time? [00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. My father was a police officer. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:42] Speaker A: So there was, you know, some history of that. It was familiar to me. And I just. I had always been patriotic. Ever since I can remember, I was, you know, I'm proud to be a Canadian and, you know, living a life of service continues. I think those of you that may have known me in my past would agree I've kind of always looked out after others before myself, but that's a different problem, so. [00:05:10] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, you've got a high level of wanting to serve, and sometimes we do that. We put our, like, you know, I. I think of just the other day that. That fellow in the news putting himself. Himself in harm's way in Australia, you know, incredible. Has a couple kids and he's trying to take down a gunman in Australia. And it's. He's, you know, just the level of putting himself in front of harm's way just to save others without a hesitation of his own life. I'm sure it's. There's obviously some fear in there, but he ultimately. Actions speak all, and what he did was certainly heroic. And what you've done throughout your years, too, also very heroic. So looking back now, was there like, Was there a moment or a gradual realization when you knew the weight of service was beginning to affect your mental health? [00:06:14] Speaker A: I think starting in the year 2000, the culture around, you know, policing and what. What became the norm and that shared bond that sort of comes with trauma. It's only hindsight that has afforded me the insight of how that actually transpired. And those moments where I. I ought to have known that I wasn't the same man that entered the profession fairly early in my career. And it wasn't until 2016, that 2015, that I even did anything about it. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Mental health injuries are often. They're treated very differently from physical ones. So what Was your experience navigating that real reality within policing and the military culture? [00:07:11] Speaker A: I will say that it was far easier to come forward with my military chain of command than it was my police chain of command. There may have been different factors as to why that's the case. I was a part time soldier and a full time police officer. There was some gravity, there was some choice. But also at the time policing is getting there. But in my experience, the Canadian Armed forces, from a medical standpoint in regards to my mental health and Veterans affairs for the most part has been good. When I let my medical officer know that things weren't great with me and I likely had some, I had some mental health thing going on. But did I think it was ptsd? I'm not sure that I did. That individual, amazing doctor said he, he just was very, very forward with me. You have, you have ptsd. [00:08:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:17] Speaker A: And I want you to know that I believe you. So right from the start there was an acceptance and understanding and they put me, they put me on to medical help with the psychologist within, within a week. I think it was very quick. [00:08:35] Speaker B: Did you ultimately feel acceptance right in that moment or what was your initial thought when you first heard that? Like when you heard, hey, you have ptsd? [00:08:47] Speaker A: The. Yeah, I, I remember actually feeling a bit of relief. I know that's not everybody else's experience, but the, that initial understanding was, Was all of a sudden taken from me and I could just lean into what was happening. And also I thought there was a potential plethora of other things that were going wrong with me. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:15] Speaker A: And for, for someone to say that to me, that initial feeling was relief. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Okay. [00:09:21] Speaker A: It became scary very quickly. [00:09:23] Speaker B: Yeah, but, but relief. Yeah. I mean some people feel shame but, or acceptance instantly. Or relief is. Yeah, another good word there. So, yeah, thank you for being so honest and open about that. And in terms of the policing, like, I don't want to pry into something you may not be able to share, I'm not sure. But like, what. Why was it not, as, can I say, a welcoming scenario to open up about your mental health back then? What, what made you feel stand. Not standoffish, more, more hesitant. Hesitant to reveal what you were battling. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Alluded to it before. It was my, you know, my primary source of income. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:18] Speaker A: That, that is a surface level explanation to an answer that ultimately comes down to stigma about individuals with a mental health injury or illness in particularly difficult professions. And you know, you're asked to go do things for that is in the protection of the public and they're and I will. I will admit it, that I had a very limited understanding of PTSD and I had my own stigma about what those individuals were like, you know, were they suicidal or homicidal. There was no real line. [00:11:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:05] Speaker A: And you know, that. That starts to shape, you know, with lack of education, that starts to shape your understanding of what may happen to you. If I had had that education in the beginning and it was supported, I might have got. I will have got help much sooner and coming. Coming forward in sort of the policing side of things, especially if you had aspirations, as I did, for promotion for, you know, lateral jobs of interest. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:36] Speaker A: That. That may and was taken away from me. [00:11:40] Speaker B: Huh? Yeah, because they may. Yeah. The stigma is real. The judgment is there. They study you for mental health too, and sometimes make judgment calls on that. I would, I would imagine in, in certain policing scenarios. So, like, how many years ago was that, you know, in. In policing for, though, for you? [00:12:03] Speaker A: So that would have been around 2000 or 17 that I mentioned that I had. [00:12:12] Speaker B: 17. Yeah. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Around 2017, I had more publicly, I'll say there were, There were supervisors that did know. Yeah, one, and luckily I had some at the time that I trusted and were very supportive. One was a veteran herself, so she got it immediately. [00:12:30] Speaker B: And. [00:12:33] Speaker A: After that, it took some time for me to go formally to HR to let them know. And I'll say it was when I received my service dog, Briggs, or when I was about to, I just went in and said I had ptsd. I'm getting a service dog. Because I didn't. You know, as. As terrible as this is, I'd seen a lot of people go after things that they, that they needed for. In my case, my. Their survival has to go through all this red tape. Right. He's a medical device. [00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:13:05] Speaker A: Figure it out. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:06] Speaker A: And it kept me at work for a while. [00:13:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you think we. They. We've made strides, though, in the mental health, the mental health fear, if you want to call it, when it comes to the PTSD and policing. Like if you were to have this situation in 2025, going into 2026, is it still that same inside friction you would feel, do you think we've made some strides in terms of acceptance and compassion when it comes to policing and, and our officers. [00:13:45] Speaker A: Well, strides, yes. But it's a marathon, right? [00:13:48] Speaker B: It's a marathon, yeah. And each, I guess each case is also very complex. It would depend on each case, really, of what someone is. Is experiencing. Yeah. [00:13:59] Speaker A: And if you were to. To simplify and and just blanket it. There's an officer with PTSD that's, you know, reached a point where they feel that their. Their supervisor needs to know. [00:14:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:13] Speaker A: First of all, that's courageous because they're choosing themselves. [00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Not right away. And second, I think that we have a lot of surface level, you know, if we'll call it compassion. I do think that people feel especially, you know, sort of on the immediate supervisor, probably at the more lower levels of, you know, the rank structure, genuine understanding. They're still on the. On the street. They're still going to the same calls. It's affecting them in. In similar ways potentially, because I don't think you can do that career and not have some sort of occupational stress injury. [00:14:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:58] Speaker A: It would be very difficult that. That in policy now, which is where it needs to be. But sometimes just because it's in policy doesn't mean it's followed by compassion. That officers know that they'll get. [00:15:17] Speaker B: Put. [00:15:17] Speaker A: On a path that hopefully will lead them to wellness, and from there, it branches off in so many different directions. I've heard amazing, commendable, you know, actions on the behalf of supervisors that have led officers to either retire with dignity or move on to another purpose or move within service and perhaps potentially operationally a fit again. But I've heard more of the. The opposite still. And as an advocate, perhaps I'm a magnet for that and I'm not hearing the good stories, but, you know, it's. It's still. Some of the stuff still heartbreaking what happens to some officers. And. [00:16:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:08] Speaker A: A lot of that is not even predicated by the. The chain of command and policing. It's with Workplace Safety and Insurance Board. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm sure it's even. Yeah. Different from district to district for policing. I. I imagine what officers going through south of the border is entirely different than what Ontario officers might be experiencing. So it's different across the board. But everyone deserves healing and compassion. So hopefully, just one episode at a time, one sentence at a time, we can keep bringing light to this profession that certainly needs it, because these are our real uniformed heroes. [00:16:54] Speaker A: So. [00:16:55] Speaker B: So let's talk about the service dog that you had mentioned. Your service dog. You began using service dog for PTSD back in 2017, which was still very new at the time. What ultimately led you to that decision and how did it ultimately change your life, your daily life? [00:17:16] Speaker A: Started by. Thanks for asking that, because he's awesome. He's. He's laying just down here. I'll show you him in a second. [00:17:23] Speaker B: Sure. [00:17:25] Speaker A: I had. I. I think a lot of us with, you know, PTSD or showing obvious occupational stress, we can kind of spot our own in conversation, at least. I've had a pretty good percentage so far. One individual called me out on it, and through a series of events and a help from one of those supervisors I mentioned earlier, was able to secure some time off and go to a retreat. And there. There were two veterans that were using service dogs as medical devices. And I was intrigued. I hadn't had a dog in my life as an adult. I had them growing up, you know, sort of outside dogs. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:15] Speaker A: But I was intrigued. I saw what they were doing and I. I can't say it any differently as I. I thought it would. I knew it would help. I just knew it. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:30] Speaker A: So I went through that process and it was grueling. It was. When you're at the height of your mental health injury, it's not an easy thing to navigate. And they're not inexpensive. They're. You know, I'd be lucky to get one for $25,000 right now. And they're not covered in any. In any way by anybody other than charities or not for profits, so. [00:18:56] Speaker B: Wow. What's his or her name? [00:18:58] Speaker A: Oh, it's Riggs. [00:19:00] Speaker B: Sorry. Riggs. Oh, my gosh. Rob, wake up. Riggs. Yeah. So there he is. Okay. Yeah, he doesn't. So he. Speaking of waking up, I guess he's not going to do that anytime soon. [00:19:09] Speaker A: No, no, he's had a good dinner. Done. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:13] Speaker A: So he's pretty. He's awesome. He's a white shepherd. [00:19:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:16] Speaker A: I ended up getting him locally after going through either in charities or not for profits, which there weren't many at the time, actually doing this to the bulk. That. Not bulk. That's not even a correct word. They're hard to find. But there's. There's more people putting them out. That is both good and bad. There's no legislation in Ontario for service dogs, so you can literally just walk into any place with your dog and there's not a whole lot anyone's going to do about it. Which, yeah, affects the. How my dog is used. [00:19:54] Speaker B: Right. But. [00:19:57] Speaker A: Getting him being as difficult as it was and having to go through, trying to go through my own fundraising and then reaching out to trusted places I thought would help, I eventually ended up receiving him, but it was not an easy thing. And it's kind of why I do what I do now, which I'm sure we'll get into later. [00:20:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Like talking about, well, you're you're instructing at the Ontario Police College. And Riggs became part of the learning environment from my understanding. So how did his, how did Riggs's presence influence the, the conversations around mental health with recruits there? [00:20:41] Speaker A: Yeah. It was interesting how that evolved because you could imagine I had just received him, I'd only maybe had him a month. [00:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:49] Speaker A: And now I'm starting brand new in like I always wanted to be a teacher. Policing was kind of my silver medal but it was the best of both worlds there. I could teach and still be a police officer, but non operational now having a service dog and going through all these recruits that, you know, it was my hang up that I thought they would think like me when I was their age. [00:21:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:17] Speaker A: Or their youth in the career. So I was incredibly nervous. But he's just so handsome and such a good boy that he moved when I said handsome. [00:21:30] Speaker B: By the way, he knows it. Probably he'll give you a wag of the tail too. [00:21:34] Speaker A: That's right. That he just started to attract attention and mostly in very positive ways. Like there's some people that just love dogs and they, they're not understanding that he's working. But that also I started to see is giving me the opportunity because I could do a few things when I could jump all over it and, and be ignorant and don't touch my dog and. [00:22:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:04] Speaker A: And, and, but I choose, or I chose and still choose to take the opportunity to educate on what's up with him and why. [00:22:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:14] Speaker A: And I was placed in, in use of force. So the having a service dog and teaching scenario based training and then eventually defensive tactics. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:29] Speaker A: Why I say that is somebody somewhere must have thought I wasn't totally junk. Right. I have these, I have these abilities but I just happen to have a mental health injury. So showed I hope for these young people that despite having a mental health injury, there's still very, very good ways that you can still be a part of this community. [00:22:54] Speaker B: Very good. [00:22:54] Speaker A: And it helped. It definitely did. Know there's thousands of recruits now, constables, some of them sergeants now, that are out there patrolling your streets that have, you know, very. A very detailed awareness of what it's like to have a mental health injury. [00:23:12] Speaker B: So let's talk about your medical retirement. And that was due to ptsd, right? [00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah, the military PTSD and, and physical injuries. I was injured in, in Tripoli, Libya in 2014. [00:23:33] Speaker B: Wow. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah. It happened, it happens. [00:23:35] Speaker B: It's. [00:23:35] Speaker A: You know what, I'm ultimately a better man for it, I think. [00:23:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So were you able to make somewhat of a close to full recovery for just basic health. [00:23:47] Speaker A: It's muscles like it's, you know, degenerating discs and you know, there's a lot of needles and self care involved with that. [00:23:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:58] Speaker A: But you know, you do the right things, then you know, you're, you'll get good results. So I just keep trying to do that. [00:24:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean it can, it can feel like losing a core part of who you are. Like medical retirement, like how did you personally navigate that loss of identity once the uniform was gone? [00:24:25] Speaker A: You know, it was definitely a challenge. It still at times is right. I was medically released from the armed forces. That is of a retirement. I say I medically retired as a police officer because I'm not technically retired on the books or legally due to what it's what is in our collective agreement to keep my salary. They retain me as an employee. But saying that when, saying when you reach that point that you're retired, hit a few people the wrong way. But I'm never returning to the job. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:08] Speaker A: And I, I had a good career. I felt I deserved to, you know, if no one else wants to give me that status, that's my status. I didn't, I didn't retire. I medically retired. [00:25:22] Speaker B: It's more of a. Yeah, you have to, it's one of those things of practicing acceptance, I guess, at the end of the day. [00:25:30] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. [00:25:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:32] Speaker A: I appreciate that thought on it. [00:25:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And in terms of helping you begin. Begin sort of redefining purpose beyond rank, title or your role. What, what helped you begin redefining purpose in that sense? [00:25:54] Speaker A: I'll say at first it became distraction. I started my own not for profit before I was medically released and retired. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Oh, is this Veterans and Everyday Heroes? [00:26:09] Speaker A: That's right. [00:26:10] Speaker B: Right, right, right. Yeah. [00:26:11] Speaker A: And that was born from a friend asking to have me help him get a service dog. So we did a couple comedy shows, raised some money, got him a dog. So we made it official and just kept doing that. So I, you know, I poured a lot into that just to have my mind active. You know, it, it drew some criticism because people figured if I could do that, I could work right and pull full police duties. Like this is the ignorance of, of the system. Right. But you know, it's not a full time job. Feels full time in my mind, but it is, it certainly isn't. [00:26:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:54] Speaker A: But I, what I eventually did, once I figured it out, was did my very best to pour myself into my relationship and you know, to the best of my ability you know, my children as well. [00:27:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:10] Speaker A: My. Both my wife and kids suffered a lot at the hands of my injury, so. [00:27:17] Speaker B: So it's not easy on the whole family, for sure. [00:27:20] Speaker A: So I just trying to be the best husband and dad I can be. [00:27:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:25] Speaker A: You know, some days I knock it out of the park and some days I don't. But they give me grace now because they understand. [00:27:32] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. That's good. That's good. Grace is good. When it comes to service dog legislation, for example, and broader support in Canada, let's talk about change. What, what changes do you believe are most urgent and why does this matter beyond just veterans and first responders? [00:27:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's true that, you know, a service. Service dog legislation would affect, you know, all individuals using specifically service dogs. [00:28:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:07] Speaker A: And the visitors to Ontario for the rest of the country. Right. That's important too. There's costs associated and not just financial, but also further, you know, mental health costs when you choose to use a service dog for a medical device. And then, you know, it's difficult to get into a store that maybe doesn't. There's no requirement to provide that specific education to your employees. I. If I go into a place and someone tries to pass their dog off as a service dog and it's reactive, it affects how I use my dog. Right. I know it's maybe a bit of an extreme, but if there was wider understanding and education, I wouldn't have people coming up and asking to touch him and pet him. And you know, know a typical thing is, oh, I know I'm not supposed to. Well then don't supposed to somewhere else. But you wouldn't go to someone in a wheelchair and ask them what brand attire they had on it. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:16] Speaker A: Wouldn't do it. [00:29:17] Speaker B: I know, it's just they're not, they're not understanding, they're not putting themselves in the other person's shoes when they should be in those types of scenarios. And, and so like this is sort of brings sort of this to my mind because you have. How old are your children? [00:29:36] Speaker A: So I have. Well, nearly 21 and 17. [00:29:39] Speaker B: Oh, okay. So they're old enough, but okay. [00:29:41] Speaker A: Oh yeah, they're older. We had kids early, so. [00:29:44] Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay. So I mean, were there ever times where they didn't quite understand the service dog mentality and sort of pull. Pull those things off, trying to want him to be a pet more than a service dog? [00:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah, at times. [00:30:02] Speaker B: And that was. He must have had to speak up in those senses too, I would imagine. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just that really, at the beginning, you know, when they were just a little bit younger. Like riggs is. He's eight years with us. He's 10 years old. It takes two years to train them. [00:30:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:18] Speaker A: I didn't receive him until he was 2. [00:30:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:20] Speaker A: My kids were old enough to understand, and when we were at. When we were at home, we were. He was a dog. [00:30:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:30] Speaker A: It's just when we were out in public. And I. I have to remind on occasion, because they're so used to engaging with him on a different level. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:41] Speaker A: But that's very rare. And when I do it, it's respected immediately. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah. That's good. So for someone currently serving, whether it's policing or Canadian armed forces, let's. Let's say they're struggling quietly. Right. What do you wish that someone had told you earlier in your career? [00:31:13] Speaker A: That there are people that will believe you and that your world might get small, but those people in that small world will have your back more than anyone in that big world? Something like that. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Yeah, something like that. And it's. It's true. The. Yeah. The smaller circle typically means. Yeah, you're. You're doing good things and you're, you know, you're not out for the whole popularity contest type of thing. You're doing what you're. What you're supposed to be doing, and it's good to have. Yeah. Support. Do you define service today in. In regards to what it was before? Like, how would you compare those to defining service today compared to what it meant to you before? [00:32:10] Speaker A: I think that it is similar in my heart. [00:32:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:17] Speaker A: But different in function. Okay, Right. Instead of looking outward as a police officer, I'm looking inward towards that community. [00:32:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. It sounds like your. Your healing journey is on the right path. And, Andrew, thank you so much for your. Your openness today. Really, really appreciate. [00:32:41] Speaker A: Was cool. Thanks for having me. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. Also your honesty and for continuing to advocate for people who often feel unseen or unheard. That is commendable. Conversations, you know, conversations like this, they ultimately matter because they remind us that strength isn't about silence. And service doesn't end when the uniform comes off. So if you're listening and this episode resonated with you, I encourage you to share it with someone who might need to hear it. And, you know, as always, thank you for spending this time with me on Awareness, the podcast. This is where you work toward a more compassionate, empathetic, and accepting society. Until next time, for the great producer, Mike. My name is Rob Daniels. Take care of yourselves and one another. And we'll catch you in the next episode. Sa.